SE: Tom | You Can't Apply Logic to Faith

San Antonio, Texas
Recorded: 24 September 2014
Uploaded: 22 January 2015

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After a brief discussion about the rapture, Tom says that he cannot know if his belief in Jesus and the Bible can be any more true that a Muslim believes in the Koran. Tom ends the talk with an admission that one cannot apply logic to faith.

If I had more time, I would have explored the concept of faith in greater detail with Tom. Perhaps we can meet again one day and discuss it further.

Mistakes:

I should have been more careful to not suggest that fear was a reason for holding his belief, and let him discover that for himself if that was indeed the case.

Please let me know if you notice any mistakes so that I can address them here for self-improvement.

NOTE: I may have used the abbreviation 'SE' and/or misspelled 'Str_eet Epi_stem_ology' on purpose to help searchers find the best examples of this method.

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The views addressed here are mine and mine alone, and are not necessarily shared by members of my family and friends.

[OrdinaryLatvian]

Compartmentalization at its finest. I used to do it when I was a christian. I used logic and reasoning for everything except religion, but one day I asked myself the same question you told him at the end, and I just thought to myself something like: "Nah, I can't keep lying to myself".

Hopefully you'll have planted a seed of doubt in his mind.

[aviatortrevor]

He says he's not believing just for "fire insurance, " and that it's "not a fear-based decision".

When I used to be a very devout and serious Christian I would have said the same thing, but honestly, it always was about fear and avoiding the big bad scary hell.

[uncleanunicorn]

Can't apply logic to faith. How true .

[maratemptress]

that pause at the end was beautiful Anthony you are getting better at them keep it up.

[ianyboo]

That was rough, I often wonder what it would be like to be a "fly on the wall" in a person's mind during a conversation like this.

Are they thinking "oh crap oh crap this is making me sounds really bad" or "yeah, I'm totally making perfect sense and hope lots of people give their lives to Jesus after hearing my testimony!"

[marcsoucie]

I think what this interview shows is that some people will adhere to a doctrine as much for it's aesthetic qualities as for it's actual correct modelling of the objective world. Truth and perfect morality are not always what people are attracted to, quite the contrary. The apologetics I think are often times ad hoc rationalisations meant to deal with the cognitive dissonance and, specially in the modern world, make the belief more socially acceptable. What I find in talking to believers (and basing on my own past adherence to buddhism) is that we recognize some kernel of truth in myth but feel we must adhere to the entire package rather than distil whatever nugget of wisdom we found in it.

[schinkdiesel]

"You can't apply logic to faith" .... my mouth dropped 

[HiDefOuch]

Side note: Tom is a great example of an agnostic theist.

[glenhill]

Anthony, don't ask whether people CHOOSE to believe. They don't, no matter what they tell you. Belief is acquired through being convinced of something, whether for good or bad reasons.

[Vorgaloth]

Are you OK with throwing logic out the window in order to hold a belief?

Yes, I am.

*Face palm*

[Thabo]

I like how at the beginning Anthony wasn't sure which Christ Tom was a follower of and had to clarify

[LetsChillToday]

You are so respectful, props. Hopefully it spreads :)

[wolfie]

If you need the bible, the bible is the last thing you need.

[jonathanhicks]

One good thing I can say about this guy is that he has excellent taste in music!

[WayneBagguley]

Brilliant work, you've come an amazingly long way from when you started; a real inspiration.

I would have loved to have seen this turn into street-epistemology, it was so close!

A few questions came to mind:

1) Given he says he follows Jesus and not Christianity, would it be possible for him to follow Jesus' teachings but reject all the supernatural stuff?
2) Is he saying that his faith position is illogical? It seems a cop-out to say that it "defies" logic, it's like he's dodging a real logical problem with his position by claiming that logic doesn't apply. Maybe ask him "can logic be applied to everything" and try and dislodge the faith virus by exploring that avenue (would God want people to use logic?)
3) Jesus rejected washing hands before eating because it's a human rule, does Tom follow this?

[aaronlietz]

Great exchange Anthony, as a former believer and apologist I saw this as a very honest position, if not the most honest position, for him (a Christian) to admit. Christian belief is inherently irrational. Paul even admits this in 1 Corinthians when he states that it is "foolishness". Christians know this fact, yet it seems that the occasions when they will admit it is rare. They came to their belief not b/c of evidence or rational thought (like they would do with nearly everything else in common practical life), they came to their belief through the avenue of an irrational leap that is based in credulity, emotion, sensationalism, and fear. What is revealed is that religious people are applying a double standard of epistemological method. They approach nearly all other knowledge claims with proper skepticism (such as whether a salesman at the door is telling the truth), and yet another lower standard for the miraculous claims they want to accept (i.e. - the ones that make them feel significant, important, cared for, and meaningful). 

Keep up the good work!

[MaximilienDanton]

I used to be a believer of this kind of stripe. What kind of pushed me over the edge in that regard was the idea of multiple people having truth being impossible. 

[okfanriffic]

How can anyone believe a good god wrote a book that doesn't know slavery is wrong and threatens infinite torture for finite crimes?

[brucewayne]

At least he acknowledged that logic and faith are incompatible whereas others try to argue that they arrived at their belief via logic.

[kmurphy]

Superstition defies logic just like faith, imagine that.