Niels Gregersen - Did Animals Suffer in Evolution?

Sentient suffering is a hard problem for theists to solve. The ‘free will defense,’ that privileges and blames human choice, claims to cover moral evil. But what about natural evil, such as animals being killed or eaten alive continuously during the process of evolution before humans? Shouldn’t egregious and relentless animal suffering count against God?

Niels Henrik Gregersen is a professor in the faculty of theology at the University of Copenhagen. At Aarhus University he was Assistant Professor in Ethics and Philosophy of Religion, Associate Professor in Systematic Theology, and Research Professor in Theology & Science.

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In my book I argue that "Evolution" is a developmental process that moves from simplicity to complexity. It has no choice but to start with the absolute *least amount of complexity* and increase from there. When life emerged 4 billion years ago, it took all of the Newtonian processes attached to inanimate structure and "upgraded" it to work with animated structure. ... Unfortunately, when "positive and negative" evolved into "predator and prey" ... there were _unexpected consequences_ (pain and suffering).

... This is where conscious, self-aware humans come in!

Humans have the unique ability to *critique and judge nature.* We decide if nature is a perfect system or morally bankrupt. *Example:* When someone chooses to not eat meat, they are challenging nature's default "predator and prey" template. When someone hands their coat over to someone who doesn't have one, they are challenging "survival of the fittest." Same applies for when we help the handicapped.

... This is why humans exist! We are judging everything "Existence" has to offer and placing everything we observe into spectrums based on "value." This is the information that "Existence" will use during the next epic stage of evolution.

[grybnyx]

He could have just said, I have an a priori belief in an unseen creator and I am going to arrange every fact about the natural world around my need to preserve that belief and its associated (religious) attributes.

[johnhoward]

Evolution does not produce suffering, evolution is suffering. I admit this is a bit hard to conceive but it is true. Check out "Mind, Consciousness and the Nature of Living Things".

[clovislyme]

I say this sadly, not as an atheist, not as someone who hates religion - I envy you yours if it works for you - but the more I watch, read and think as I grow older, the more theology seems to consist of making increasingly elaborate excuses for a God who, if he exists (I have a feeling that He does), does not love any of the creatures in His creation in any sense of the word love comprehensible to humans. I wish it were otherwise.

[davidshoesmith]

Speak to David Bentley Hart on this issue Robert

[MasoudJohnAzizi]

Well, watching lions slowly eat a gazelle does seem painful for the gazelle..

[robertdobie]

Recently I’ve been doing “thought experiments” imagining inhabited alien worlds where there is no (or very little) suffering. The only such alien ecosystem (with intelligent life) that I can think of is one where intelligent non-carnivorous plants have evolved (and no animals). They subsist on air, water, and sunlight ... not the flesh of other beings (except perhaps dead bodies). They may be permanently rooted in soil ... or they may be mobile. Of course, one would also have to imagine a mechanism whereby atmospheric oxygen and carbon dioxide are kept in balance.

[SolemnPhilosopher]

The more important question here is why are they standing toward each other so awkwardly. A metaphysical standoff or duel perhaps?

[dominicvijayanand]

body and mind makes us all mostly, body cannot feel pain without mind, and mind cannot exist without life. and what is life without pleasure and pain. and there is no creature which did not taste pleasure even if it was little. compared to more pain, loss and suffering to most of us, and body and mind of ours is only for a short time, to experience the extremes of pleasure and pain. no pleasure or pain is eternal. so there is a hope of relief and rest for every living being. no living being suffers for ever. no never.

[mrdanielmicallef]

A very articulate and clear minded speaker. Thank you.

[colmburke]

I think pleasure cannot exist, or would be meaningless without something to contrast against (pain).Everything that exists has to have its opposite, or something to contrast against, in order to have meaning. Ultimately, everything=nothing=everything..maybe🤔..

[Westrwjr]

If you possessed an elemental sense of self but had never been born, and were offered the choice to experience human life or remain as you are, how would you decide? Would you embrace birth, stepping into a life filled with experiences, relationships, joys, and sorrows? Or would you deem the potential for pain too great to justify the risk?

[GianniGaudino]

Interesting video, surprised there are no comments in this thread already.

It’s just a proposed thought - but i believe it’s possible God came into being when the Big Bang happened. If every action has an equal and opposite reaction, wouldn’t it make sense that a destructive explosion of such great power and chaos would have an opposite with equally great power driven by order?

If this is so, then it’s plausible gods intention was always to combat chaos through purposeful creation.

Meaning that suffering, pain, darkness, and chaos came first & Gods purpose was to create joy, light, and order. Spiritual combat in a sense.

Unintentionally, we as products of the same matter that was driven through chaos became corruptible overtime. So there was a flood and many perished in devastating chaos. But some remained and those that did had to adapt to a new order of being. Because climates and terrains changed due to the flood animals and humans alike had to “grow” or “evolve” to meet this new standard of order.

[askingbetterquestions]

Another life to come? When my brain dies, I die.
How could my rotting or incinerated brain resurrect?
People are terrified of death, but we love telling stories.

[ezrawilson]

The point to remember is that God is right there in the middle of our suffering, feeling every iota of it Him/Herself, despite what classical theologians would have us believe. As Alfred North Whitehead said, "God is the fellow sufferer who understands." Reflect on this fact when you're contemplating the crucifixion and it will acquire profound new meaning.

[alonandroberthalter-ross]

The moment i hear the word "God" on this channell i move somewhere else. Unfortunately lately there seems to be more and morebof these vacuous talks and less profound scientific philosophicalnones. Theology is
No more than bad poetry.

[jackwt]

Some people evolved from rabbits, some from foxes, some from honey badgers. So different people have different personalities.

[ameralbadry]

If we are resurrected then those newly created persons are not physically us, why should we care about an afterlife.
We have to live this life as the only one available for us.

[tomazflegar]

Of course, they are sensing something, that is not only nervs, blood, electricity. They are aware. Nervous t does not cause pleasure. Pleasure is something you are aware of. In first person

[Jinxed]

If God exists, here's the only honest conversation you could have...
"Did animals suffer in evolution? "

"I have no idea."

"Is God inside our outside of time? "

"I have no idea."

"What would eternity be like?"

"I have no idea."

Etc etc etc.

In a reality created by a God, we would have NO IDEA what that God would be like. None. The values, morals, structure, nature, etc, of such a being would be, by definition, completely beyond our comprehension . Stuffing such a thing into a neat, understandable, tidy box is laughable.