Ep. 11 - Changes in the Autism Discourse with Prof. Tony Attwood

Ep. 11 - Changes in the Autism Discourse (with Prof. Tony Attwood) - We had a chat with Tony about the changes in autism advocacy, education, and perspectives during his career. We also discuss changes in how autism has been viewed diagnostically, and how people could have been missed earlier and who would receive a diagnosis now.

GUEST BIO: Professor Tony Attwood is a clinical psychologist who has specialised in Autism Spectrum Disorders since he qualified as a clinical psychologist in England in 1975. He currently works in his own private practice, and is also adjunct professor at Griffith University, Queensland. His book Asperger’s Syndrome – A Guide for Parents and Professionals has sold over 500,000 copies and has been translated into 27 languages. His subsequent book, The Complete Guide to Asperger’s Syndrome, published in October 2006 has sold over 300,000 copies and has been

Thing of the Day: How to Talk about Autism Respectfully: A Field Guide for Journalists, Educators, Doctors and anyone else who wants to know how to better communicate about Autism by Mykola Bilokonsky
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Autistic Tidbits & Tangents is a biweekly podcast, co-hosted by Kara Dymond & Maja Toudal, centered around topics relevant to autism and the lives of autistic people. We are both autistic professionals with a passion for broadening and advancing accessibility for autistic people and understanding of autism and neurodiversity. We approach our work with the combination of our personal and professional experiences.

Episodes can be found on Spotify, Anchor, Google Podcasts, Apple Podcasts and with video on YouTube.

SPECIAL THANKS:
-Theme composed by Bruce Petherick
-Today's guest, Prof. Tony Attwood

[dustistreet]

I will probably get virtually “yelled” at again but when I was first diagnosed as having Asperger’s I went to Aspie meetups with fellow Aspies.
So I still feel like an Aspie.
I actually had a panic attack when Asperger Syndrome was taken out of the DSM-5.
It was like they erased us.
I still feel that way even though there are many Autistics in my family.
I’m still the only one who was diagnosed as Asperger’s.
If these same family members had been diagnosed when I was, they too would have been diagnosed as an Aspie.
I can’t seem to switch my brain to say I’m Autistic rather than Aspie.

[fabiogfranco]

45:30 “One of the things that I have always explored, and I think this is very important, is the concept of “who are you?”, and the recognition of the authentic self. Now, the authentic self may be different in the convention of gender, etc. It's “who are you?”, and I think many autistic individuals will explore the sense of self deeper than others may. Others may do this briefly, and so on, but an autistic individual, often as a solitary pursuit, would explore the meaning of life, and why they don't fit in, and a whole range of things, and are much more self-analytical, and are looking for explanations. And so what happens is that the person has come to a decision after a lot of thought, that nobody else has listened into.”

Wow! Another great insight! This explains why so many philosophers were probably autistic — like Schopenhauer and Wittgenstein for example. Amazing!

Thank you for this wonderful interview with the most knowledgeable expert on Asperger’s in the world!

[catherinejames]

This has been, by far, the best discussion covering so many aspects of the challenge of being autistic in a neurotypical world that I’ve come across. Just as I’ve been struggling so much lately with anxiety and socialising as well as feeling angry towards peoples ignorance around it all. I’m 66years old now and just cannot keep masking its so draining and soul destroying. I’m completely happy in my own space, I’ve been more successful in life than most neurotypical people I know who apparently see me as gifted because I’m an artist and highly creative, so they think I’m ‘lucky’, which I find a really strange thing to say. They have no idea of how challenging it is for me to socialise and that I actually do love being alone and free to explore whatever I’m in the mood to do. The philosophy of Objectivism is quit helpful to me lately as guidance for how to be happy.

[galespressos]

@Prof Tony Atwood is a treasure and so succinctly describes the situation as it is. People are different and the differences are not the problem but rather the way those are responded to and treated. Then I’d add, we can gain or loose each others’ value by how we perceive and respond and handle the differences. Differences can be treasures too, .

[KarenThompson-xw]

Very insightful discussion. As above, I’m a successful academic (not in psychology) in my sixties and have only recently uncovered my own autism. There were so many points that resonated for me - particularly what I now realise has been a lifelong obsession with respect for all human differences. If I can contribute to the community in any way, please get in touch. Many thanks for recording this discussion- I will look up your new book now.

[himbo]

Greatly appreciated seeing Maja again, and Tony Attwood. Interesting conversation.

[thexpax]

"Maja" is the hit of the show, I think, as Tony is his usual expert self.
Maja I see as potentially our next Tony Attwood extraordinaire

[galespressos]

Thank you to @Dr. Kara Dymond, @Maja Toudal, and @Tony Attwood. This has been so insightful, lovely, and so helpful. It has been put so sensitively and with recognition of what is without the judgements.

An in, portent point was the need to learn beyond our own experience and self understanding. We might tend to focus on ourself and our experiences to understand others personalities and situations which is a mistake because we have so much to learn. It is helpful but we need to go beyond that and learn much more.

Beside this, the pick up of energies and feelings from others is debilitating potentially. The ones who misinterpreted shut down as indicative of lack of feeling couldn’t be further off. The pick up of feelings is so intense that it can literally be debilitating. In my case I’ve had to leave the room or get out of a train car since the energy from people or a person there was too intense and wit was being absorbed like a sponge to the effect of causing a sick feeling. For selfish reasons as well as concern for the person I wanted that person to feel better and chill, including the people rushing aggressively with tension in the train. Any blank expression and comatose like stillness was from overwhelm, not lack of feeling.

[mississippiatheistette]

I am so glad he talked about autism and prison and drug use. I feel the same way about drugs. I was a heroin addict for 12 years. I have been sober for 8 months. I understand why I must keep pushing for my sobreity, but I hate every minute of being sober. I went to prison. I did 1 year total, and it actually traunatized me. Staying sober now for my kids is my top priority, but I am miserable libing sober. I only do it because i would figuratively kill myself to make sure that my kids dont see me like that any more. It is so hard.

[AusticHardOfHearingSinger]

I am autistic. I gained a sense of humour. For example, my joke I created: What do you call a 3D-printed human being? A carbon copy.

[WilliamFontaineJr]

What a beautiful conversation between such fine intelligent humans. Thank you for making this available to help our world be different.

[neridafarrer]

Being exposed to Drama class in late primary school to a total light bulb moment for me. It was so liberating to realise that I could pretend to be someone else as I was very very quiet and unable to make friends. I became good at drama and it was a lifeline. Watching movies has always been a special interest, as has reading. I survived my childhood and adolescence by burying my head in books. I was the kid who hid in the library in break times.
I got into music performance; singing in particular, as a homeless teenager, as I was situationally mute but I got the opportunty to sing in a band (casting couch situation) and I thought I might be killed if I didn't jump at that situation. Being a homeless, autistic teen ( I didn't know I was autistic at the time) girl, I got raped a lot and after one of those I cut my wrist and ended up in a drs and he just prescribed me antidepressants and told me to "go and get a job". I couldn't say much, very poor at communicating and very minimal words but I had learnt how to act during late primary and high school so I thought I have to jump at this opportunity to sing because I can barely talk and there were very predatory men around and my parents were out of the picture. The man who gave me the singing job in his band was predatory as well. He was twice my age and anyway I got pregnant to him, 7 times. Had 7 children to him. Learnt to sing and that lead to me learning now to talk to people but I ended up with cptsd as he was emotionally cruel and narcissistic and threatened to keep my children from me if I ever tried to leave him.
On realising I was probably not going to last much longer under those conditions I finally left, I met another autistic man, the parent of one of my son's best friend. He helped me leave my abusive relationship.
Two of my sons are autistic, one has level 2 autism and the other is like me "gifted" "high functioning" and "ADHD-y".
I am hoping to get a diagnosis from Tony Attwoods Brisbane clinic. I have contacted them online, waiting a response. I no longer sing much, but I got very good at that. I am fairly housebound. I have grandchildren now. I have good relationships with 6 out of the 7 of my children. I have 2 grandchildren. I adore them! The other son who doesnt talk to me is very aligned with his dad.
I got a cptsd and a bpd diagnosis. I had an eating disorder for many many years. I smoked a lot of pot during the long term but very creative AND abusive relationship. But I don't now. I have a supportive relationship with the guy who "rescued" me. He is, clearly, an Aspie with the same phenotype as me and youngest son; "gifted" "traumatized" ASDy and ADHDy.

[chillwinstonuk]

Thank you so much for this, you 3 beautiful human beings. This is fabulous, and so so much lands. There is a softness in this conversation, so real.

I love that you have touched on the invisibility of autism, because of how the child learns to hide the true self, sometimes from everyone.

I think of the child feels safe and that they have stability with the home, then there is the possibility of an unravelling. However if the child doesn't then even more masking. This is where we see the unique expression in every autistic person, influenced by so many environmental factors.

There is something that I find fascinating that I'll share. The common pattern of adults receiving a diagnosis of ADHD in later life, and then post treatment and a period of emotional processing and acceptance, their Autistic self become much more aware to them. This has been my experience, and that of many friends.

I was adamant that "I was definitely not autistic".
Those people are but not me, I am too social, too this and too that.

Oh how our perspective can change, and in an incredibly welcomed way. The feeling I am left with now is..."oh wow, there are so many other people like me.

Who find the world noisy...

Have a deep connection to mother nature

Love to spend time alone

Cut labels out of their clothing

Feel like their head is going to explode when sitting at a function and waiting for the predictable "hello what's your name and what do you do for a living?"
, whilst hearing all the sounds in the venue and longing to be in your nest and out of what feels like a complete waste of time

Etc etc

I also wonder about the following. The experience of looking back and seeing how many of your deepest connections have been with other Autistic and/or AuDHD people.

I always thought that me having an issue with eye contact was because I was odd, or weird, paranoid even. I attributed it to that there was something wrong with me, maybe I was smoking too much weed as a teenager etc.

However, now as a 47 year old man, I feel so free when sitting with Autistic friends because like me they don't want to stare into my eyes. Like me when they speak they look to the side or up/down. And that feels normal to me. I don't want to stare into someone's eyes, it feels so intrusive and like a boundary break.

Also, when we think about many species of predatory mammals, human beings are warned not to stare at them and held eye contact. It is seen as a threat or a challenge.

I walked out of a restaurant for the 1st time at the weekend because I couldn't handle the noise. I found it quite liberating because for the 1st time I was honouring my needs.

The part about autistic adults working in the caring profession landed. I am an OT, and find that the feedback I get again and again and again is "you go above and beyond and have helped us more than anyone else before". This deep empathy however can be very taxing, I can feel so burnt out. I can get home and want the whole world to go away.

Thank you, this conversation has really touched me

[galespressos]

Right, that’s it, looking at the patterns and analysis of the patterns, then using that to be functional.

A big challenge I’ve got with the patterns is what I consider dishonestly when people agree to something or say they will do something but maybe people consider that being friendly or are saying it to avoid a conflict or meant it at the time and completely forget it. That has caused extreme havoc.

For Maja, you are doing so very well with the challenge of the burnout and/or depression, showing up anyway when you are dealing with the challenge now. Hoping you’ll be able to hibernate a while and recover from at least some of the exhaustion soon.

The energy cost of coping is massive. It’s quite true that so-called neurotypical people don’t realise the extraordinary amount of effort, and in fact we are encouraged to be silent about our efforts, especially women but men too, and we want to be generous and don’t want to complain, and want to be responsible so we do our best (performance) and then hibernate to recover which of course nobody sees.

Similarly, people with hidden physical disabilities may go through pain and not show it, or depression and such then may crumble in a ball to recover at home.

Much more to say but super tired now.

[saskia]

I was so happy to hear Maja explain how important the tone is. Person first or identify first isn't that interesting to me, the tone is because that can tell me how the person sees autism and people on the spectrum.

[messyjessynavigatestheworld]

Wonderful discussion! Thank you so much and thank the you for discussing the experience of anxiety and for the idea of energy accounting! And thank you for the personal stories all around it’s great to finally know that I’m not alone!

[AnnInghamlife-goals]

This is one of the most helpful pieces of information so far in my discoveries into Autism. I cried at the discussion of insults rejection and criticism. I laughed out load when Tony said "people say thinking outside the box, what box? " it tied together a criticism I was told I had no common sense. Its true. There is little about my thinking that is common. My thinking is innovative, creative and novel.

[WendyLMacdonald]

This was wonderful. Thank you. Congratulations on the upcoming book. 📚 Loved listening to all three of you.

[wolfdreams]

This is awesome, thank you!💜 I believe that I'm on the spectrum, and according to each AQ quiz I've taken in order to see if maybe I'm on the right road, all say "highly likely". I look forward to checking out the one Dr Tony created for us women, cuz im 61 and have struggled through finding ways to appear "normal".

[thexpax]

Dear Maja did not really reveal the author.
Tony has been talking about "witches and fairies" and "Harry Potter" for so long, it has been easy to add 1 to 1 and get J K Rawlings.
BTW, it is interesting that the publisher for Rawlings did not want to put a woman's name as authorship.